When one declares oneself to be a conservative, one is not, unfortunately, thereupon visited by tongues of fire that leave one omniscient. The acceptance of a series of premises is just the beginning. After that, we need constantly to inform ourselves, to analyze and to think through our premises and their ramifications. We need to ponder, in the light of the evidence, the strengths and the weaknesses, the consistencies and the inconsistencies, the glory and the frailty of our position, week in and week out. Otherwise, we will not hold our own in a world where informed dedication, not just dedication, is necessary for survival and growth.

William F. Buckley Jr., Feb 8, 1956, NR

Thursday, February 12, 2009

Guest Posting by Ken Taylor


The House version cost 820 billion dollars. The Senate version, 837 billion dollars. Now the, "compromise," only a measly 789 billion. The bill will have a price tag after interest of well over one trillion dollars awaiting the President's signature. Resulting in Barack Obama having his victory to begin the march to socialism in America.

Whether it is called ,"The Economic Stimulus Package," or, "The Economic Recovery Package, " this bill which will be sent to Obama's desk and soon after we wil witness the greatest transfer of power to the federal government in the history of The United States. Little of this debacle has any chance of creating a job or stimulating any aspect of the economy.

It is loaded with liberal pet projects and massive government spending all of which is designed to give control through spending to the government. Arguments against it are called un-American. Proposals that cost less by removing the pork were not even considered. Proposals that actually put money back into the pockets of the American people through legitimate tax rate cuts were called old and failed ideas.

As the bill began receiving stiff opposition from House and Senate Republicans and especially as the American people started seeing through the garbage and realizing that this bill was nothing more than a liberal wish list of spending and government programs, poll numbers began drastically dropping and the bill was quickly losing favor with the people.

Obama reacted with frustration and anger similar to a child who was not getting his way. The only thing missing was the stomping of feet and tears because we heard the whining and the small tantrums as he spoke to House Democrats during their 100 thousand dollar retreat in Williamsburg, Virginia.

In his press conferences, radio addresses, speeches at various functions Obama has used every opportunity to insight fear in the American people in order to get his way and force this bill down our throats though its passage. His attitude has been, "whether you like it or not we are facing Armageddon and only I can save the day with my bill."

Using phrases like, "the worst economy since the Great Depression, " which it is not, and ,"total economic collapse," also words like, "catastrophe," and , "Armageddon," if the bill was not passed Obama created an atmosphere of fear. He is used this fear as a tool to get the bill passed and literally scare the country into accepting socialism.

In the final analysis that is exactly what this bill is. The beginning of a complete and likely irreversible march to socialism in The United States and Obama is using fear to get his way. He does not care what it costs, he does not care what the ramifications will be, he does not care that this total socialist spending bill is contrary to everything that our Constitution stands for.

He does not care that the bill does almost nothing to stimulate the economy. He only cares about changing the very fabric and foundation of our country from a free Republic of and by the people to a government controlled socialism with Barack Obama as its leader and author. This is what he meant when he campaigned on the mantra of change and the change from freedom to socialism is what he is beginning with the passage of this bill.

In 1981 when Ronald Reagan took office he faced an economy that had 21% inflation, interest rates in the high teens which made purchasing a home and affording the payments nearly impossibly but also not very desirable. The country because of Carter embargoes and windfall profit taxes faced a fuel shortage that had Americans waiting in line sometimes hours to get what little gas was available.

Reagan's response to a far worse economy than we are facing today was to encourage Americans not scare them. He reminded us of who we are as a free people. Spoke of America as, "the shining city on a hill," and the best hope for the world. He encouraged Americans to stand in our freedoms and told us that are best days were before us.

He talked of his faith in the ability of Americans to revive the economy and backed these words up with action as he dropped tax rates for individuals and business returning money to the people from the government knowing that true stimulus comes from the people and not the government.

Reagan never promoted fear but created optimism. He never talked of weakness but stood fast through strength. He encouraged Americans and believed in America. He gave real hope and not fear mongering platitudes. And Americans responded. The economy soon turned around and America experienced the greatest peace time economic growth in our Nations history.

Reagan displayed true leadership and the people responded. Obama does not lead he creates fear. He does not provide an example to follow but uses scare tactics to get his way. While the economy is suffering because of the recent down turn, much of the problem lies in the fear that Obama and others like him are creating through their gloom and doom approach that has Americans afraid to spend and business afraid to hire.

All of this creates a climate of economic failure, job loses and a general atmosphere of gloom throughout the country and the world. I am not saying that optimistic words alone can change the current atmosphere, but continually discouraging Americans does not create an atmosphere of recovery either.

Reagan trusted the American people to promote and finally make the economic recovery of the eighties. He understood the necessity of letting the people control their money and their future. Obama trusts the government and complete social control of the people and every aspect of American life.

And he is succeeding through fear in creating the American socialism he wants. This bill is just the beginning. We are witnessing at the hand of a completely incompetent President the total change of our foundational principles and the creation of a new form of American government. A government of Obama, by Obama and for Obama.

Ken Taylor


TAO said...

Great post Ken....

Now, excuse me, but I am not interested in knowing how evil Obama is and how great Reagan was.

Are you interested in what is wrong with our economy or are you just interested in promoting Republcians over Democrats?

Why not give it up and focus on long term solutions rather than constantly beating the drum of how great we are and how evil THEY are...

Realistically, Reagan took office when job losses had peaked and Obama is taking office when job losses are just beginning.

Obama is dealing not with a recession but rather with the collapse of our financial system.

Big difference.

If you are not willing to acknowledge the difference and deal with reality then conservatives will go from being the minority party to being totally irrelevant.

We have lost banks, we have lost over 40% of the value of the stock market. We are losing jobs at a faster rate than we have ever lost jobs in the history of this country.

We have no inflation but rather are facing DEFLATION. The Fed has lowered rates to next to nothing and still nothing.

In 81 energy prices were driving inflation and causing the economy to overheat...in 2009 we are facing deflation which is the exact opposite.

You never once acknowledge the deficits created by Reagan and Bush and the socialism of Bush...

So basically, I cannot help but realize that republicans just really do not care about reality at all and only are concerned with loving themselves and their deep need to feel good about themselves...

We are at this point in our history because of the FAILURE of the Republicans...

We are facing socialism because the conservative Bush Administration saw nothing wrong with socializing Wall Street and their losses and stupidity.

So, we spent 20 years playing socialists with tax rates and government debt but NOW because a democrat is playing socialists we get all worked up.

The government has played the economy for 20 years and NOW everyone wants the government to stay out of it? Should have done that years ago...

Republicans lost the election because of the results of twenty years of Reaganism....

Now, you can just gripe for four years and pray for a short memory span of American Citizens...

CB said...

Good post Ken! Good to have you here.

A little support for your case:

Henry Morganthau, FDR's Treasury Secretary, conceded this fact to Congressional Democrats in May 1939: "We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong ... somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises ... I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started ... And an enormous debt to boot!"

CB said...

Before I get to TAO, here's some more support for your case, especially for those who think a Keynesian stimulus is in order, not even Keynes himself supported the notion after observing FDR, later, more mature and wiser:

the older (and presumably wiser) John Maynard Keynes was skeptical of using infrastructure projects as a countercyclical tool. NYU economist Mario Rizzo now brings to my attention that the mature Mr Keynes also favored the payroll tax as a countercyclical policy instrument:
In correspondence with the economist James Meade in 1942 Keynes says he is “converted” to Meade’s idea of altering the social security payroll tax over the business cycle. Here are Keynes’s words:

I am converted to your proposal…for varying rates of contributions in good and bad times.

(June 16, 1942). Keynes, Collected Writings, vol. 27, p. 208.

…[Y]ou are able to show fluctuations in income of an order of magnitude which is significant in the context… So far as employees are concerned, reductions in contributions are more likely to lead to increased expenditure as compared with saving than a reduction
in income tax would, and are free from the objection to a reduction in income tax that the wealthier classes would benefit disproportionately. At the same time, the reduction to employers, operating as a mitigation of the costs of production, will come in particularly helpfully in bad times.

(July 1, 1942). Keynes, Collected Writings, vol. 27, p. 218.

CB said...

TAO says that Obama is not dealing with a recession but with a financial collapse.

I certainly agree that his bill in no way addresses the recession and his tax cheat in chief hasn't inspired confidence that he knows how to deal with insolvent banks.

Brother TAO, are you suggesting that this huge bill, which as Ken said will be the largest transfer of power to the federal government in history, will do anything to address the issue you say is confronting us? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, recession is not the issue, insolvency of the financial system is the issue.

Further, Monday night, Barry noted that 300,000 jobs have been shed from payrolls since he won office. The operative part of that last sentence is, since he won office. As a business owner, you know that you can't wait for events to happen to you and you have to ensure the long term viability of your firm. CEOs are responding to cues from Washington by laying people off. I began to make big changes in my companies last year as the auction rate market began to dry up.

Ken is right again, in that Reagan inspired confidence. It seems that Barry is intentionally trying to drive the markets down and unemployment up. As Rahm Emanuel said, never let a crisis go to waste, especially if you can throw fire on it as Barry has. Ken is also correct, Reagan inherited double digit unemployment, double digit inflation and he cut taxes.

Bush was no conservative and yes, he and Reagan ran up deficits and Bush, like Hoover, started us down the Road to Serfdom. But Barry, like FDR before him seems more determined to finish it off.

The Liberal Lie The Conservative Truth said...

TAO - my reference concerning Reagan compared to Obama was not as much the situations that each faced but in the way they approached it.

Reagan did not talk gloom and doom or try and scare America into thinking his way. He promoted free enterprise, personal responsibility and told the country that the people not the government would bring recovery.

He then backed up what he said by giving back in the form of tax rate cuts etc.

Obama is using fear to force his plan down our throats whether we like it or not.

Additionally the continual fear mongering promotes a lack of confidence which does not bring recovery. This debacle of a package will do nothing to stimulate anything.

FDR proved it by doing almost exactely the same thing and as CB said FDR's treasury secretary said they had failed and history shows the same.

I am not promoting us against them and regularly opposed Bush when he spent like a drunken sailor. I was against the prescription drug entitlement, and the bailouts among several disagreements I had with Bush and the GOP.

But with Obama I cannot just watch him totally turn this into a socialist nation which is his goal and this package is just the beginning.

I may be a Republican but I am a conservative first and hate what the GOP has done and how they have abandoned conservatism for a populace type moderate McCain style Republicanism. Remeber, republicanism failed in 06 and 08 not conservatism.

I think that finally after two devastating loses the GOP is starting to wake up and feel that Steele, who I know personally and can vouge for his true conservatism, will take the party toward the correct path.

But that said, if the GOP continues to follow the populace ideas then I will continue to oppose what they do. Specter, Snowe and Collins are the ultimate turn coats!

On the other hand what the dems and Obama are doing is so blatently socialist that I cannot just sit back and watch them destroy our country.

It is my Constitutional responsibility to fight when I know that what they are doing is wrong. They work for me, I do not bow to them and bowing is what they expect of the American people. They forget they are the servants of the people and not our dictators! So fight I will!!!!

CB, Excellent points and very approproate to what I was writing about Obama and scaring the nation into socialism.

Everytime a President has tried the socialist path it has failed. Wilson tried it FDR tried it and to an extent Carter di but Obama is moving even more than any of the others did and does not try to hide it or even disguise it. He just blatently does it.

Socialism has failed in every country throughout history and it destroyed the country in the process. Obama is repeating history with his agenda and I only hope that before it has an opportunity to change our fundamental principles in an irreversable way that the public wakes up and fights for our freedom and our Republic.

The Liberal Lie The Conservative Truth said...

One more thing. I realize what the problems are in the current economy and also where it started through the bubble of the mortgage debacle which collapsed and then the ripple effects caused through bad practices by banks and other similar institutions. Both parties are at fault. This is just a quick and apprevaited description.

But the bottom line here is that government will NOT solve the problems especially through the total take over approach that Obama is forcing down everyones throat.

While certain oversight is necessary, total regulation and government control is completely destructive. That is the Obama appraoch and in his own words any other idea but his won't work.

The American people and business, especially small business are the key to recovery. A tax rate cut at the payroll level for instance which immediatly puts money into pockets will stimulate more than the entire 789 billion AND the 700 billion from last year combined.

Cut business tax and also capital gains to allow business to invest and expand which will create jobs.

That would be a far better start then the dead end that Obama is using!

TAO said...

Ken and CB...

My basic point is that conservatives are making themselves totally irrelevant in the current political debate because they refuse to look at reality.

Socialism hasn't failed, like you would want to believe...look at Europe and the fact that that 10 of those countries statistically have higher standard of livings than we do.

I am a businessman and you can cut taxes all you want BUT UNTIL I SEE THAT MY SALES ARE GOING TO INCREASE I am not putting a dime into investments or expansion.

In manufacturing demand or sales creates my desire to expand and create jobs....not tax cuts.

As far as the quote from Morganthau goes...the exact same thing could be said today, after 20 years of Reaganism and supply side economics we have more debt and less jobs than ever.

The bottom line is all you have to argue is that what you propose as a counter argument for the Socialism of Barack Obama is the policies that got us in this mess in the first place!

So, whats the use of arguing against a plan that most likely will fail with a plan that has already proved its self a failure?

I am sorry, I cannot see the difference between tax and spend and borrow and spend. The only realistic difference is that you support borrow and spend and from my perspective that is not a difference.

Now you can run back to Locke and the founding fathers all you want but if all it gets you is to the point that you support borrowing and spending then you are not a Philosopher but a Poltical hack.

Its like expecting me to believe that Sen Judd Gregg just woke up yesterday and realized that he had policy differences with the Obama administration...get real...someone intimidated him and he got back into line.

Sorry, but after watching you folks jump around to avoid and deny that Bush and Republicans were the most destructive force to conservative principles we have ever seen in 20 years and now represents to most Americans proof of the failure of conservatism and the denial that Reagan implemented the concept of DEFICITS DON'T MATTER I have decided to establish a subsidary with operations off shore....

When the political debate amongst citizens sinks to the level of denial of the obvious and rhetoric represents nothing more than a vain attempt to skirt the facts and distort the facts then it is time to pull a John Galt and move on.

You see some of us see Reagan and Bush as nothing more than an attempt by the economic powers that be to entrench themselves and protect themselves from competition as they gouged their greed and vested self interests.

Now you see Obama as a threat...I see him as only a reaction.

Everything is NOT right with this country but Obama does not represent all that is wrong....Bush and Reagan represent just as much failure as you credit to Obama.

My days of blogging are coming to an end....

It is obvious that no one in this country can look at reality without the rose colored glasses of partisanship distorting that reality.

Oh, Obama is heading down the wrong path no doubt about it but realistically there was no other path available. You can believe all you want that there is another path but your path is nothing more than lower taxes and more deficit spending and at the end of the day that is no different than the path laid out by Obama.

You cannot see it or acknowledge it and that has been the failure of conservativism. There is no way to build a future on deficits and there is no difference in Repbulican deficits or Democratic deficits.

I really am not that big of a fan of philosophy or ideology....reality gives me all the information that I need and with a little common sense its all a piece of cake.

CB...go back and read Atlas Shrugged but don't assume that you are John Galt...just read the book objectively and you might actually come to realize the similarities between your own arguments and those of Taggart.

TAO said...


Here is my argument in a nutshell, our current financial situation is fundamentally different than any other situation we have faced.

I believe that Irving Fisher's Debt Deflation Theory is pretty much on the mark.

I believe our first mistake was to pump money into Wall Street...that was rewarding failure. We have to stabilize the financial system but we should have done it via the smaller community and regional banks who were not affected by the mortgage meltdown like the big banks were.

Smaller community and regional banks do rely on loans for their income while the majors do not.

Deficits DO MATTER. There is not one middle class American who can claim that debt limits their economic growth. Every person who plays the weekly lottery does so because they are looking for a quick fix to get out of their debt hole.

Everyone knows that if they had money they could really be successful! Yet we have come to view debt as money. Debt allowed us to have what we couldn't because of a lack of money.

I argue that no wealth has been created in this country for 20 years because of the level of debt.

I further argue that debt allowed for the greatest concentration in wealth that this country has ever witnessed. Just look at the subprime mortgage meltdown. While conservatives focus on all the deadbeats that got mortgages they could not afford and that is was the governments fault lets not forget that the mortgages that are toxic now were the result of someone selling real estate and the seller got paid while the bank is now stuck, or the US taxpayer is stuck holding the worthless crap.

You want to argue that the government worked to benefit poor people and I would argue that the government really worked to benefit a bunch of business people who manipulated the real estate markets to make a killing at the expense of a bunch of deadbeats and now at the expense of this country.

I run my business totally different than most businesses are run. Everyone else gets paid before I get a dime. No salary, no bonus, no perks, nothing until the end of the year and then I get what is left over.

Wall Street pays bonus' to CEO's and management even when the company looses money? CEO's are increasing their pay and bonus' even as they layoff employees and cut back...

We get attacked on 9/11 and no one is held accountable and no one is made to justify the money we paid up to that point to be secure and no one asks the question of the failure of our government...but rather we use it as an excuse to justify spending more and creating more.

Then you and Ken argue that Obama is growing government. Hello folks! Obama has a ways to go to catch up with the growth of government under Reagan and Bush...

I really have no argument that needs defending....and truthfully I am sorry that I actually wasted my time voting in 2004 and 2008 and I am going back to my pre 2004 mentality of who cares who wins none of them are all that much different than the other...

You see while you are focussing on the democrats and socialism I believe you have been hoodwinked by Republicans as they stole more wealth for themselves and their allies.

Lets get real folks, no one pumps millions of their own dollars into influencing an election without expecting something in return.

Who makes the biggest political contributions? Corporations?

They cannot even vote!

Sorry, I cannot buy the emotionalism of you or Ken over the destruction of this country that you believe Obama represents because I know that neither one of you acknowledge the destruction of our country and our economy by Reagan and Bush.

Sorry, my ideals do not allow for me to see the Republicans as anymore beneficial than Democrats right now and lurking under all your rhetoric and quotes is a desire to support Republicans.

As they say, six of one half dozen of another....not much difference in the two. Both parties, including your matinee idol Ronald Reagan used government to benefit a few. So for twenty years the 'haves' have enjoyed the largesse of government and now the 'have nots' get their shot.

Sound economic policy is neither Repbulican nor Democrat.

TAO said...

Ken and CB...

I will let Newt take it from here:

"One feature of the GOP resistance to the stimulus bill is a renewed conservative populism—it is anti-big business as well as anti-big government. To some it's an ill fit, but Gingrich welcomes what he sees as a return to Reaganism and small government. Reagan "represented grassroots America reforming Washington; he did not represent the elites telling the American people what to do,” he says. “Over the last eight years the Republican Party became the right wing of the party of big government, and forgot that its grassroots was with the American people. I'm delighted that they're going back. There are simple tests: is it better or worse for small business? Is it better or worse for the self-employed, for entrepreneurial start-ups, for your local synagogue, for your local community? If in fact it's terrific for Citibank and GM, but bad for small business, then it's an elite bill—it's not a populist bill."

But Gingrich is impatient with Republican voices who counsel nothing but a "No-Bama" strategy—waiting for Democratic excesses to make a case for Republican restoration rather than putting forward a positive counter agenda. "Those folks are generally unprepared to lead, unprepared to govern and don't have a clue about history,” he says. “If you don't stand for something and you don't win the argument and you don't have people vote for you for a good positive reason, then you have no political capital to spend. I mean, if they didn't learn that from the 2004 election then they may be un-educable. Proving that there were more anti-Kerry votes than there were anti-Bush votes was no basis for a second term."

Now, I think Newt is a fraud and he is just using Reagan to win supporters but other than that HE DOES POINT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!

Anti Big Government and Anti Big Business....its just economic elites and political elites dictating to the American People...

Now, most Republicans just cover up their elitism by using the term 'small business' but if we are sincere in the definition of small then we can move forward with a true conservative agenda...

If 'Bigness' is bad in government then it is bad in all things, business and religion...

Anonymous said...

if I wished him success, it could only mean I hated my country, my fellow man, and God himself. but i do not!

CB said...


I said in an earlier post, conservatives are more Dangy Taggert and Hank Rearden than Midas Mulligan, Francisco d'Anconia, Rangar Danneskjold and John Galt. We're still trying to save the system!

I don't know what you're reading about Europe but even before the financial crisis, Europe has had persistently mid teen unemployment and their socialized medicine rations care and kills the elderly. The British have bad teeth for a reason because you can't get in to see a dentist.

Their population is also dying off whereas the US continues to grow.

I gave you credit for recognizing that our problem is not recession but financial system insolvency but this monstrosity of a bill won't help. The CBO says it will hurt the economy in the long run and will have very little effect in the short term. FDR's Secretary of the Treasury Morgenthau, after 8 years of spending said that it didn't work. Keynes himself later in his career recognized that infrastructure spending doesn't work and favored payroll tax cuts and not income tax cuts only because of the class envy that would make income tax cuts less POLITICALLY viable.

Christina Romer, one of Barry's council of economic advisor members, in 2007 published a paper that said that tax cuts are stimulative and that tax increases are contractionary. Without getting too technical here, using her argument and methodology argues against government spending in a recession.

Retail sales picked up last quarter, unemployment claims dropped, housing is showing signs of life. It's like Marty Feldman testified before Congress saying the best indication that the economy is recovering is that Congress passes a "jobs" bill. Well, it's hard to argue that this thing even targets jobs, this is a liberal 30 year wet dream.

What BO needs to do, if he is interested in helping to right the ship, which I seriously doubt, is focus on the financial system. What should he do? Let the banks fail. No one in the Obama administration or on Wall Street wants to recognize the insolvency. It's as if they don't say it, it won't be so. The banks have invested their treasury assets in mortgage securities that have no value, period. We need to de-leverage from that but that's not the end of the story. They also are holding trillions in consumer debt that has increasingly less value because individuals are broke and barely making interest payments on the debt. Then commercial real estate will fall, followed by prime mortgage pressure.

A financial system can't be re-capitalized until there is accounting recognition of the insolvency. It will be very painful for a while but it will be much shorter lived and recovery will come much sooner if the government stays out of the way.

Anonymous said...

Hold that thought TAO, the Annointed One is about to ascend upon us and give another speech tonight. As soon as he can crank up his new Jet!…

TAO said...

Retails sales were up but that is just folks rushing to get XMAS discounts (which means store profits were down) you can increase sales and still lose your you know what. Unemployment claims dropped because people fell out of eligibility...you can only draw so long. While there has been a pick up in home sales we are still seeing an increase in foreclosures. Thus we have not begun to tread water.

Tax cuts are a better solution during typical recessions but we both agree that this is not a typical recession...so whats the point of bashing Obama and noting his advisor?

Reagan got us comfortable with the idea that deficits don't matter...which translate into you can have your cake and eat it too...

Then you got all the regulations freeing the financial folks to go nuts and NAFTA under Clinton...that was party hearty times for the elites and special interests.

Then you got Dubya, or dumbass, who grew the federal government with prescription drugs, no child left behind, and the war...then he chucks trillions at wall street in hopes that it did not collapse on his watch...

So, your point is?

That Obama is new and unique?

He is the threat?

Come on....

Let the liberals have their wet dream for once...damn conservatives have been screwing us for the last 20 years.

That is what one of the wonders of democracy is all about...theres something for everyone!

So, socialism is all thats left for us....but don't blame the poor folks, blame the rich cats and greed.

Sorry, I guess I could go into some great philosophical rant with all this insight and quotes (name dropping) but you know I just like to keep it short and sweet.

Maybe we will be better at socialism than we were at capitalism...our socialism of the last 20 years made a few people very rich...I say SPREAD THE WEALTH!

If you are worried go ahead and get your teeth fixed while you still have a chance.

Maybe Obama is doing all of this to get back at us white folks for slavery? Hmmm....

So then what was Reagan's excuse? Clinton's excuse? Or Bush's excuse?

So, without high home values, without credit cards, exactly how much economic growth do you expect to see over the next 10 years since wages have not kept up with inflation?

What expansion can one hope for when people will begin to realize they have to live on less? How much purchasing will there be as people decide not replace things that are wearing out or running down....how many cars can one sell when families learn to get by with one or two rather than more cars than they have drivers for?

On and on it goes....then the tax base is reduced and government will eventually have to scale back....

Our military will look like the russians, obsolete and rag tag...

Yep, thats the reality.

TAO said...

Well, I would rather listen to Obama directly than put up with his Press Secretary....

But I believe I will be busy doing other things....so I will miss this one just like the others...

CB said...


Obama is the threat! He is the enemy!

This stuff has been tried and failed! I gave you FDR's Treasury Secretary saying it doesn't work. I gave you the man whose name bears the theory saying it doesn't work. It failed through Japan's lost decade. Christina Romer, from Obama's council of economic advisors published a paper in 2007 that demonstrates that this will not work but in fact be harmful. The Congressional Budget Office says it will be harmful.

This is going to consign my children and potentially grandchildren to a different, harsher, less opportunity laden America than you or I have grown up enjoying.

No one knows what's in the bill. Pelosi didn't release it in time for a public vetting before the vote. Why the rush? This bill will cost more than $3 Trillion over 10 years, when you add in the interest. It will crowd out private investment and unless you know somebody who knows somebody, you won't be able to sell your shirts! It will be a political economy with chronically high unemployment GUARANTEED!

I am unconcerned about deflation. Deflation is simply a recognition that value has fallen. It is an accounting recognition of reality. Trying to prop up real estate or credit is like the children that play hide and seek and hide in plain sight thinking that by covering their eyes, they can't be seen. Inflation will destroy the jobs and value that remain after the recession, creating more of a crisis.

1+1 does not equal 5 and it never will, this bill will cause pain and misery, it will create a huge political class and political economy of that I am absolutely certain.

TAO said...

Hysterics CB...

David Stockman the wonder child of supply side economics and Ronald Reagans sidekick acknowledged back in 1991 that supply side economics doesn't work....

Did you freak out for your kids future back then?

Deflation is also when coupled with a recession leads to a depression because prices are continously falling and companies have to keep cutting costs and consumers quit shopping because things will be cheaper later on....

You think that we are just going to hit a point and then everyone is going to acknowledge that everything is fairly valued and then everything will just return to normal?

Get real....

I don't use quotes...I can see the stats, check this site out:


Oh, and here is a quote for you:

Marriner S. Eccles served as Franklin Roosevelt's Chairman of the Federal Reserve from November 1934 to February 1948. In his memoir, Beckoning Frontiers (New York, Alfred A. Knopf, 1951), he offered his opinion of what caused the Great Depression:
"As mass production has to be accompanied by mass consumption, mass consumption, in turn, implies a distribution of wealth -- not of existing wealth, but of wealth as it is currently produced -- to provide men with buying power equal to the amount of goods and services offered by the nation's economic machinery.

Instead of achieving that kind of distribution, a giant suction pump had by 1929-30 drawn into a few hands an increasing portion of currently produced wealth. This served them as capital accumulations. But by taking purchasing power out of the hands of mass consumers, the savers denied to themselves the kind of effective demand for their products that would justify a reinvestment of their capital accumulations in new plants. In consequence, as in a poker game where the chips were concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, the other fellows could stay in the game only by borrowing. When their credit ran out, the game stopped."

RevRight said...

Are you folks for real?
This isn't a conservative blog, it's a place for liberials to bash conservative points of view.
There is no debate here it's just a forum for Libs.

Toad734 said...

But wait, I thought Reagan pushed through one of the largest tax increases in peace time history??

I also thought the national debt under Reagan tripled and the number of families living under the poverty line increased by 1/3?

I must be remembering the 80s wrong?? No I don't think so. Get over the Reagan era, its he and his ilk such as Bush who handed an endless checkbook to the military and ran up the debt which Clinton had to fix.

I hate revisionist history lessons.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm, and here I thought that people going back and forth discussing issues was debate, silly me!

By all means, liberals, go back to your previous conservative bashing...LOL

Arthurstone said...

Oh woe is us. The sky is falling. The gov't plans to kick start the stalled and failing economy and all of a sudden the right side of the aisle is looking at price tags after years of using the nation's credit card to run up a very hefty tab funding the endless 'war on terrorism'. That of course, after years running up huge bills 'winning the cold war'.

Guess what. We 'won' and your crowd couldn't wait to find a new foe. Well 'terrorism' was an inspired choice. A never ending battle against shifting, amorphous opponents with no realistic end in sight. Ever.

Until 'conservatives' show a little interest in having a discussion of the costs of maintaining the American empire then I guess the 'isms' are going to torment them.

Frankly I'd prefer 'socialism' to the one we've got...'militarism'.

CB said...

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Robert said...

It is sad that there are so many people who are speaking in platitudes and refusing to acknowledge history.

First and foremost, Reagan brought this country from a deep morass into the future. The nation was burdened, truly burdened, with excessive tax rates and a capital gains rate that was 70%. Where would Microsoft, Walmart, Apple, etc be with tax rates such as those? NOWHERE. There would be no innovation as we see today. Those tax cuts saved this nation from being a thrid world country. Possible a bit of hyperbole there, I admit, but I remember the 70s and I dont remember ANYONE that was happy. It was more than Reagan's policies, it was his leadership. His persona. His perspective. At a time when the nation was down he WAS The Gipper.

His tax cuts brought unparalleled revenues to the government, which byt the way, is OUR money. It does not belong to the government except in an amount that we approve. Congress did nothing to enact spending cuts. In fact, they spent the increaased revenues multiple times!

The fact is that this stimulus bill is nothing of the kind. The government has no business passing a 1.7 trillion dollar appropriation with no time for the public to consider it. They have no business trying to aim money at specific industries and job creations when they should be allowing the greatest economic machine int he world succeed. They should be cutting taxes, cutting government spending, and finding incentives for people to succeed, not ways to hand out money.

And Toad, Clinton did nothing for the DEBT. He balanced the budget and for a couple of years had some lack of DEFICIT. However, the debt grew under Clinton as well.

TAO said...

Robert, if congress spends the money as you claim was the case in your second paragraph then why is this Obama's stimulus? Shouldn't this also be congress spending money?

But as long as the congress folks keep bringing the money home to their districts they will get reelected.

At some point we are all going to have to face the fact that it is OUR government regardless of who controls what and that our government has been hijacked for control by special interests.

Reagan was a persona and a very necessary one at the time. Obama is a persona and a very necessary one at this time.

Robert, since you remember the 70's, tell me, how different is the ranting end of the world today any different than what the democrats were saying back then?

Not much is it.

Truthfully, I don't think either party has a clue what to do and both parties have their hands tied by special interests that they couldn't do a thing even if they figured something out.

One of these days THE PEOPLE might actually get an opportunity to take their government back but we will be too busy fighting each other to notice....

Then its going to be too late.

At some point in time everyone is going to have to get realistic about our economy. The little engine that could just cannot create enough growth to pull our debt load. Our overall debt to equity ratio got to look pretty bad....and then to assume that growth is right around the corner and that in a few months we will get over this little hiccup is not realistic at all.

To sit here and dance around with words and blame isn't all that realistic. Reagan was a good leader but supply side economics sucked. Clinton achieved alot durinig his tenure, and Robert, acknowledge that he made government smaller and he did balance the budget...but he was a slimy person.

George Bush had strength but he was so focussed on one thing he lost perspective of everything else.

To sit here and complain about not having enough details about 798 BILLION stimulus when we had no details of the trillions pumped into Fannie, Freddie, Wall Street, and AIG is not quite the argument you want to make if you want to be taken seriously.

CB said...


You're argument seems to be that we "let" Bush screw it up, why not let Obama screw it up some more. We don't know what happened with TARP, so why worry about what's in this bill. At various times you seem to argue that this is all Reagan's fault and Obama is the man for our time. It's hard to distinguish your position from that of Paul Krugman, Robert Reich, Al Gore, George Soros, Nancy Pelosi or Barack Obama.

You ignore Morgenthau, you ignore Keynes, you ignore the success of Reagan or the failure of Japan. You have picked out the worst of Republican errors (whether they were indeed conservative approaches or not) and you support liberal notions of spending and are unconcerned about taxation. You worry about deflation but think inflation is a non issue.

You remind me of the preachers who rail against homosexuality but are busted on gay porn sites or with gay prostitutes. If it walks like a duck....
You're trying to hard to convince us that you are a classical liberal or modern conservative and I'm not buying it.

TAO said...

"You're trying to hard to convince us that you are a classical liberal or modern conservative and I'm not buying it."

That's a hoot! So tell me, who is this "us"? Why would you think that this 'us' is worth convincing of anything?

I am not a modern conservative or a classical liberal...and I don't really do not classify you as one or the other either.

Lets see, Reagan lowered taxes and economic growth went up but so did the federal deficit. Clinton raised taxes and economic growth went up but the federal deficit went down.

So your point is what?

Morganthau met with FDR every morning throughout the depression and went along with everything FDR said, then in his journal he took the other side of the positions he implemented; he was called henny penny for nothing.

Here is a link to an article that uses the same quote against Bush and Paulsen http://www.thenewamerican.com/history/american/473

So, what is your point?

You are just a political hack, who really is not interested in a realistic solution but rather cherry picks facts and quotes to spin a tale....and you think that I care what you think?

On one hand you acknowledge that our financial system melted down and stopped functioning in September 2008 but on the other you are thinking recession/inflation.

You really think this current situation is nothing more than the recessions we dealt with in 2001 or 1991. So you plop down with all your conservative history books and cut and paste quotes however you see fit.

Not once are you willing to acknowledge that this situation might be different. Think a war is going to pull us out of this mess? We are already in a war.

By the way, aren't wars nothing more than massive government spending programs?

Think that you can make comparsions with the depression? Match GDP to government debt and see if the solutions should be the same?

Why not go back to 1873 when the government did nothing and compare that to now. Oh, but back then most people grew their own food and lived on property they owned.

Probably not much of a similarity there either.

Why not come out of your protective shell and venture out into the real world, the real economics, and give up the out of context quotes and emotionalism and deal with the fact that a majority of Americans voted for Obama. Now, you can argue all you want about how Obama pulled the wool over the eyes of everyone that voted for him and I would agree! But then I would also have to acknowledge that Bush did the same thing and so did Reagan.

I am not really interested in jumping in bed with either side in this mess but rather finding a totally new side and supporting that.

Our political system and economic system benefitted a few for a long time and now the many want their day of benefits.

That is human nature and all your theories are useless against human nature. You have sat here and gone on and on about Obama but you sure were quiet before 1/20/09...


Here are your words used October 2008 against Bush and Paulsen:

The circumstances of today's $700 billion bailout are eerily similar to those of FDR's New Deal, and today's Pied Pipers are playing the same bipartisan, power-grabbing tune.

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury Department spokeswoman told Forbes.com concerning how the figure of $700 billion was arrived at for the financial bailout package. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."

Choosing a "really large number" helps, of course, if one is trying to convince the American public that the nation is facing a really large emergency, and that the government must be given really large powers and really large sums to deal with the emergency. Which is why governments love emergencies and crises, whether real or imagined.

Over the past few weeks, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson has led a team of Henny-Penny alarmists sowing panic over the troubled financial markets. "The sky is falling, the sky is falling, and only massive emergency government intervention can save us," they claimed in so many words.

Reading the whole article makes me realize that you just plagarized from the John Birch Society.

CB said...

Uh, TAO,

I didn't write that.

Besides, as the Bard of Avon famously penned, past is prologue. What you are trying to do by comparing a horse and carriage era to today's modern transportation and suggesting that there is no parallel for that reason, overlooks the fact that both are transportation modes. What's consistent is the human response to stimuli. A farmer in the 1800s given the choice of planting a crop that earned 4 shillings a bushel versus 6 shillings a bushel would respond no differently than today's farmers who are growing corn instead of soy or wheat because of the ethanol subsidy. Economics is the study of the use of limited resources that have alternative uses, the principles do not vary because of seemingly exogenous brought on by advances in time or technology, 2 good things will continue to be better than 1.

Further, Clinton wasn't responsible for the growth during his term in office, Reagan was. Tax cuts fueled the growth of the economy, Bush 41 slowed it down with tax increases and the federal reserve created a bubble that resulted in recession but when the fed eased credit just prior to the election, Clinton benefitted from the bounce after taking office. He proceeded to raise taxes further, which resulted in the recession Bush inherited.

Bush cut taxes and after 9/11 the fed cut interest rates. The tax cuts worked, economic activity picked up but the interest rate cuts exacerbated the housing bubble created by the Clinton justice dept. fannie and freddie. Financial system health, the size of government and the economy had been relatively independent until 2007 when the financial crisis threatened everything. Financial system health would have had a deleterious effect on the most important part of this, the health of the economy, but it wouldn't have taken the economy down. The size of government was too big already at 25% of GDP but our economy could still rock along at 3% nominal growth but now it will be 40% of GDP and the economy can't possibly generate anywhere close to 3% growth with a government eating up that much of GDP, we, in fact will recede.

In addition to the size of government driving down economic activity, it will be further harmed by the hyper inflation that must follow this massive transfer of power to the government, it will further be harmed by a weakened financial system. We could have weathered the financial crisis and recovered as we have before but we can't overcome the massive intrusion of government we have been assaulted with so easily. It will prolong the agony for years and give us nothing but debt in return that we will have to deal with for decades. This movie has played before.

TAO said...

Sorry about that CB...guess it was ken I was going after...

So basically, lower taxes stimulate economic growth and higher taxes lead to a recession but lower government deficits.

If we give Ronald Reagan credit for everything good, like lowering taxes and then again increasing them the next year, which gave us the prosperity that we enjoyed in the 90's do we also give him credit for the financial meltdown?

When viewing the percentage of the GDP that government eats up we also must acknowledge the percentage of GDP that is created by governmental expenditures. That is the part that I view as the 'military industrial complex" part.

"IN FACT WE WILL RECEDE..." Yep, I have been saying that since 2002. Now I see everyone else is catching on. George Bush made it painfully obvious to me that even professed conservatives were all running amok in the government.

Ever wonder how much of our GDP is actually due to government spending and borrowing? How much is due to social security benefits being spent every month, those welfare checks being spent every month? How much of our GDP is due to government and personal borrowing?

What kind of economic growth could we have seen over the last 20 years if government had just ceased to exist except for the basics.

What would a home really be worth if we did not have Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? How many people would really own homes if not for those two programs?

How many colleges and college students would we really have if there were no student loan programs?

Then what would our schools look like if they were financed locally with no federal assistance?

How much wealth was created in the last 20 years due to credit cards?

What would life be if we all paid cash for everything? What would life be if government had to pay its bills and balance its budget every year? Which wars could we have avoided if we had had to "pay as you go."

Kind of like your agriculture example. What if I could decide this year to make televisions rather than tee shirts? It is a little more complicated than just planting different seeds...

Wonder what our economy would be like if it wasn't for the billions of dollars the government spends every year for research and development?

I wonder how many snake oil salesmen would be out there playing their games like Bernie Madoff did...

Why is it that Republicans can lower taxes and increase government spending and no one has an issue with any of it but let a democrat come up with a spending plan and all of the sudden its massive power to the government...yet when Homeland Security, secret courts, and domestic spying that is not massive power to the government?

Anonymous said...

This batch of comments is a nice summary of how much we are screwed! But no one has even touched the tip of the iceberg. An it makes me wonder how long will the MSM hide the real Obama? There is no terminology available to express adequately the appalling irresponsibility of this naked political banditry. To have squandered a fraction of the near-$1 trillion cost of Obama's pork barrel in days of prosperity would have been more than reprehensible; to do so at a time of financial crisis is unforgivable. Obama likes to pose as the heir of Abraham Lincoln: as this shameless bribery demonstrates, he is heir only to the Chicago Democrat political machine!
I have come to detest Congress and the Democrats and even some of the conservatives that go along with this monstrosity of a so called president saying “ lets give him a chance” . A chance to do what? Bury us completely? Look at all he has done and shoved down our throats in 3 little weeks. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever imagine that I would say such a thing about our government. It is so obvious that our representatives in Congress don't give a damn about America that I just don't care anymore. We can't protest, write letters, emails, or call because they don't pay attention anyway. They ram bills through that we haven't even had a chance to read or become familiar with. I hope they all rot in Hell. An you ask us to give him a chance?The Democrats own this horrific mess! They passed a bill with over 1,000 pages without even reading the damn thing, how freaken stupid is that! How long are we going to sit around and bullcrap comparing him to Reagan? Get off that crap already. Furthermore, I deeply resent being forced to have some of my tax dollars go to causes that are against my religion; abortion funding, the National Endowment for the Arts, government indoctrination centers in public schools and throwing good money after bad to the lazy dope smoking freaks staning on the corners or hanging out in the barber shops taking the needle.

Chuck the Schmuck Schummer said that Americans don’t care, well he is partly right, he should have said that democrats don’t care! No the stupid democrats are not at all curious about all the crap thats wrapped up in that bill. . Simply swallow what's fed them. Just go along with what they hear their moronic congress people say. It boggles my mind to see idiots in charge.
Like what was in Sandy Berger's pants. Answer...well Bill Clinton said it was just a stupid mistake...Yeah right. I’m telling you people we are all dead meat if we just believe these idiots.. Actually we are the idiots, and the people that voted for this abomination are idiots. The puppet has become the puppet master of the American people

RevRight said...

Watching the democrats congratulate each other for passing this spending package I was wondering if any of them even knew what was in it!
Not surprising .. Just another “rush job” before a Federal Holiday in the hopes that the American public won’t be paying attention and won’t realize what is really happening. And as that Schumck from New York Schummer said, "Americans don't even care" What he should have said was that Liberials don't even care.
That is one BIG crap sandwich that Minority Leader John Bohener is threw to the ground! I wonder if Nancy could have even lifted it?!

Shaw Kenawe said...

I have come to detest Congress and the Democrats and even some of the conservatives that go along with this monstrosity of a so called president saying “ lets give him a chance” .--ICaA

Did the person who wrote this get a chance to read the Secretary Paulsen bail-out bill for Wall Street passed during Bush's last months in office?

Did the person who wrote this get to read the Patriot Act? All of it--before that was passed?

How about reading about the huge government agency--Homeland Security--did you read what its responsibilities and actions would include?

Did you read that?

How about Bush's budgets that he prepared and passed while in office.

Read all of those too?

Unless you've done that reading or at the very least were outraged over those issues, then I don't understand why you've come here and rant.

Shaw Kenawe said...

"...why you've come here TO rant."


Joe said...

Shaw Kenawe: But wait...it was the Democrats who said THEY would post the bills 48 hours in advance so the "American Public" would be able to read them.

See, they claim the moral high ground without including in that truth-telling.

So maybe Rebublicans lie, too. Still the Dems said they weren't going to do that any more (admitting, therefore, that they had in the past), but they did anyway.

'Splain that to me.

CB said...

Why yes,

Many of us did protest the Bush Paulson bailout, vociferously!

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Не для кого не секрет, что экономика Украины в настоящее время находится в кризисе. Не смотря на это, есть специалисты, которые под ширмой государственных служащих работают против государства, которое доверило им занимать высокие должности, оплачивает достойную заработную плату, но …?!
Одним из таких деятелей, является БУСАРЕВ ВЯЧЕСЛАВ ВАЛЕНТИНОВИЧ - председатель налоговой службы АР Крым. Личность, которую можно поставить в пример многим политикам, ведь Вячеслав Бусарев получил старт в карьере государственного служащего когда у власти была Партия Регионов, однако, остался при должности и до настоящего времени, когда Партия Регионов находится в оппозиции, а все почему?! Все очень просто, В.Бусарев работает на свой карман, а не для бюджета Украины, «кормит» вышестоящее руководство ГНА Украины и остается «своим» при любой власти в стране. Перейду к конкретике, подтверждающей все выше изложенное.
Существует такое понятие «налоговая яма», это предприятие, которое создает затратную часть предприятий-контрагентов посредством предоставления им налогового кредита. Проще говоря, помогает предприятиям контрагентам завышать свои затраты, тем самым минимизируя уплату налогов в бюджет, а иногда при миллионных оборотах предприятий сводит уплату налогов в бюджет к нулю. Как Вы понимаете, деятельность таких предприятий должна быть незамедлительно пресечена налоговой службой, но, под непосредственным контролем В.Бусарева на территории АР Крым были созданы и помогали скрывать налоги предприятиям Крыма и некоторых регионов Украины следующие «налоговые ямы»:

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Почему то, при якобы тотальном контроле со стороны налоговой, указанные выше субъекты без проведения проверок перестают работать, а на их месте создаются в один день от трех до пяти подобных предприятий, при чем регистрируются в один день, на одних и тех же лиц, также в один день выдается свидетельство плательщика НДС, при отсутствии расчетных счетов в банках.
Все вышеуказанные предприятия «помогли» своим контрагентам скрыть от налогообложения сотни миллионов гривен, а это бюджетные деньги страны. Соответственно, за «спасибо», т.е. бесплатно, указанные предприятия не существовали бы. Поэтому предприимчивый В.Бусарев обложил данную деятельность «налогом в свой карман», а именно, ставка этого «налога» составила 0,8% от валового оборота деятельности каждого из указанных предприятий, а это в итоге миллионы гривен. Но, как Вы понимаете, без поддержки сверху, такая «деятельность» не существовала бы. Поэтому В.Бусарев должен отдавать некоторую часть денег заместителю ГНА Украины В.Кайзерману, который взамен, за это поддерживает В.Бусарева и ежемесячно либо снижает планы поступления налоговой Крыма в бюджет, либо при угрозе его невыполнения корректирует в сторону уменьшения.
На указанном примере работы В.Бусарева, становится понятно, каким образом налоговики становятся миллионерами.

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